No one, you knowother than school trips, people didn't really think of it as a great collection. There was a logic for the family dissolving the enterprise which was hard to overcome with the attraction of a sale. I mean, also I thought Boston was the most European city in America. So I was in the room, andI think her name is Marietta Corsini? And, JUDITH RICHARDS: You didn't feel encumbered? And I had to carry the pieces. And in my new home in BostonI just got a small place to replace my big house because I needed a place to sleep when I'm in Boston. And, you knowand I sent them a commendation letter afterwards. But we have some legacy of where certain pieces went, and I was able to track some pieces down later in life. JUDITH RICHARDS: When you say "secondary names," those are still artists who would be in museum collections? [Laughs.] But I think that afterand this is why I talk about when the Chinese entered the marketplace. I mean, I have a fewI have a print from a Bulgarian art show from 1890. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That's a tough question. So in that archive, every time I open any given artist, I will find something astonishing that I didn't know about andyou know, so thatto me, that's justit's, like, literally a treat a day. I mean, I found a conflict the other night at the collections committee advisory meeting at Worcester. JUDITH RICHARDS: Well, that's it. And they let me do it. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. JUDITH RICHARDS: Let's say the deluxe model. So you could borrow our Bacon if we can borrow your Rembrandt. And I think I needed more of a therapist than a decorator. So, you know, we can fight that territory one collector at a time, and if that means a deep engagement with one person to try to interest them in something that we think will be rewarding for them, JUDITH RICHARDS: I assume participating in art fairs is a way of broadening your audience, JUDITH RICHARDS: Perhaps collaborations within some other [00:46:02], JUDITH RICHARDS: symposium or whatever you can imagine doing, JUDITH RICHARDS: that will bring in people andyeah, and then convert that, JUDITH RICHARDS: current interest in only contemporary and Modern to, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, our first TEFAF, for which we received some praise and some criticismwhich is exactly what I wantas the radio personality says, "One star or five stars, and nothing in between." You know. We know that T Dowell, Tylden B Dowell, and five other persons also lived at this address, perhaps within a different time frame. So, you know, there was that frustration, that you can never haveyou know, you can never have an encyclopedic stamp collection because you're always going to bethe lacuna is the same lacuna every other collector is going to have. Joan Cusack, actress. I'm thinking that we want Agnew's to be scaled for the marketplace, and I don't think that being that large is the correct scale today. Is this Crespi?" JUDITH RICHARDS: If we can go just separate, not the gallery. JUDITH RICHARDS: To considering and, in fact, acquiring a partialyou were the head of a group of investors, JUDITH RICHARDS: And that's been since 2014, right? "The auction is coming up." It was justit was this hoarding, boxing, newspapering, closing the box, knowing what's in the box, and moving it over, and getting another box. Robert Clarke, actor. Researchers should note the timecode in this transcript is approximate. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I went to a boarding school, and then I went to live with my grandparents, who had moved by that point to Virginia. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, meaning that I would be a more serious financial player in the art market, not a face. "All in the Gay and Golden Weather", published June 12, 1869. You know, it was important to me that that's the type of person, you know, sink or swim, whetheryou know, I didn't want a shark. I knewI knew that Best Products, 18 hours a day in front of the screen, wasn't going to be my long-term plan. So I think back then it was much more about a buying strategy, and, you know, I think now I would say, Be very cautious and very slow, because now the market is created to separate you from your money and, JUDITH RICHARDS: And this applies to specifically Italian Baroque or any of the areas you've, CLIFFORD SCHORER: generally speaking, what's happened is the auction market, which used to be a wholesaler's market, has become a mass market, and as such, the marketing techniques employed have become mass-market marketing techniques. No, I neverI mean, I alwaysI mean, the problem is I'm a jack-of-all-trades and a master of absolutely nothing. I drove to the border and I said, "I want to walk over the border and get a train to Bosnia-Herzegovina." But I was happy to help. And I understand why; you know, some of the scholars are superannuated, and they're just not in the game anymore, and there's a verythere has been a very forceful cabal of dealers who've manipulated the market. I mean, in the smaller Eastern European museums back in the early '80s, when they weren't making any money, and nobodyyou know, they were pretending to work, and they were pretending to pay them, and nobody cared. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, it is. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I know that Colnaghi has managed to navigate those waters for the last 60-odd years since the originalyou knowwell, even more than 60 for thesince the original founders were out of the picture. I ended up there, and I made the deal with the devil, which was if I was first in my class, I could not go back. And the focus was much more British 20th century. So he would've been 20 or so around then. And [00:14:03]. And they would bring it to you, and that was incredibly annoying to someone with mywith my type of a brain. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I did haveI did haveso, I'm trying to remember how old I was when I boughtI bought a big house that needed a lot of work. But has there been an increase in some competition, or the alternative? JUDITH RICHARDS: Did youdid you make all those design decisions yourself? Have you always maintained fine art storage? But, yes, there did come a time when I sold the house, where I said, you knowall the blue-and-white went to Sotheby's. Washington, DC 20001, 300 Park Avenue South Suite 300 JUDITH RICHARDS: So what were some of the early key purchases, and how did theywhy were they goals then and, JUDITH RICHARDS: how did they appear? Once the stock reduces by half add in . JUDITH RICHARDS: And when did youbut you didn't really start buying, CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, I didn't start doing that until I was inuntil I wasI had. Is that the case? So I go in there, find thisthere's this little Plexiglas box, and inside this Plexiglas box is the most breathtaking bronze I have ever seen. That's like a little bit of sleuthing, which I enjoy. No. But I just didn't have enough practice. Yeah, pre-that buildingto the Louvre, to, you know. Has that been changing? $14. CLIFFORD SCHORER: they were also a very closed set. And that's not my world at all. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, the Met, number one, of course. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. How did that interest. JUDITH RICHARDS: Climate-controlled art storage? Channel Bass, 1904 Painting. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you ever think about collecting drawings or prints? And I could actually get reasonably good examples. London? They've become broad-market marketing techniques. But for those moments of flourishing, when they were a key point, you know, look what they produced. So. I'm very proud of Daniel. And again, I mean, I don'tbecause it's not a family legacy business for me; I'm not planning on handing this off to a son, so I have to think very carefully about what the next generation of the Agnew's company will be. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So their largest triceratopsian specimen is mine. I resigned from the collections committee at the Worcester Art Museum. They have no idea. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did he come before World War I? Relatives. CLIFFORD SCHORER: the Lewis family. And then when they referred you to something else that was interesting, I would go look at that. You know. The transcript and recording are open for research. The neighborhoods that I knew. Are there any other thoughts you have about the responsibilities of a collector, at least in your field? JUDITH RICHARDS: That would mean three or four years? [00:38:00]. Now she's at Milwaukee. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no, but you know what I mean. It sounds, from what you've said, that you prefer a level of anonymity with your loans and your donations. JUDITH RICHARDS: Does Agnew's participate in art fairs? Born in 1836, Winslow Homer is regarded by many as one of the greatest American painters of the 19th century. Winslow Homer. So, yes, I've had, over the years, to send things to the art museum or to conservators or to other places to get them out of my house. I was, JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah. [00:04:00]. I'm done. So, yes, there werethere's the collection that, had I unlimited wealth, I would have acquired. Some cruder examples of earlier things from Han. JUDITH RICHARDS: grinding your own pigments. JUDITH RICHARDS: So while thesewe're talking about these early collecting experiences. I think not. Funding for this interview was provided by Barbara Fleischman. I think it ended when I was 11. We did a Baroque-style porcelain fireplace by a Japanese artist named [Katsuyo] Aoki, this amazingly modern, white porcelain, beautiful fireplace. So, around that time, I had met a few dealers in the Old Master world, and I did start to either back or buy with the intention of selling, which I hadn't done before. So, it's an interesting, you know, circle. JUDITH RICHARDS: What did you call it? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. And Anna especially, too, on the aesthetic, of creating a new aesthetic that people do not any longer associate with the old aesthetic. I mean. We went to the apartment, and I bought the painting, and at the same time, the familythis was from one of the largest commissions of the 17th century, and the last two paintings were still in the hands of a man whose name was the same as the man who signed the commissioning documents 400 years before. I wanted to go to the shelves and just start at one end and find things that interested me. It's astonishing. Soon he was a major contributor to such popular magazines as Harper's Weekly. And they let me bring that on the plane. CLIFFORD SCHORER: My understanding is it's around 1911 and '12, yeah. Without that, we could not feed these people. And those days are now over, because the auction companies have created a broader market. Winslow Homer (1836-1910), A Fishergirl Baiting Lines (1881), watercolor, 31.8 48.3 cm, Yale University Art Gallery, New Haven, CT. Wikimedia Commons. No. JUDITH RICHARDS: What kind of institution were you in? I'm improving the collection. CLIFFORD SCHORER: each moment that I hit upon an artist's name that I didn't know, I would go off on another tangent. Thank you for supporting the National Gallery of Art National Gallery of Art Custom Prints; About National Gallery of Art Custom Prints; So, you know, I did that kind of loop aesthetically, where I went from the filigree to the shadow. Ry * STREET LIST MANSFIELD, I spoke to the auctioneers quite a bit. I'm certain it was with Mildred, because she was very involved in all of those things. I've been invited to a few other things, but it's really a question of, you knowmy geography is such that I'm not usually in the neighborhood at the right moment. We've done Paris Tableau, which is obviously now over. JUDITH RICHARDS: yeah, but it's so different to really try to do it yourself, JUDITH RICHARDS: read about it in a book. What happened?" CLIFFORD SCHORER: You can't lend to a private gallery. [00:06:00], JUDITH RICHARDS: You've talked about competition a bit; in fact, in a very knowing way. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Islip, I think. No, no, no. I've got some French examples. You know, you can only do so much of it; otherwise, you have a saccharine high. So I think that, you know, we're in athat's in a different world, but I see that. If I saw something in the shop, I would buy it. JUDITH RICHARDS: Where is the Gropius house? So if I want to pursue an area of collecting, it almost would be easier, as the curators do with their oaths, to collect outside of your area. We can still do a very large volume in dollars, but a very small volume in picturesyou know, dollars or poundsbut a very small volume in pictures. JUDITH RICHARDS: But what about the issue of who do they actually belong to, and do they belong to the culture, the local museum? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Meaning, I bought a company. JUDITH RICHARDS: And he drove a Model T? Clifford Schorer (1966- ) is an art collector in Boston, Massachusetts and London, England. Skinner had a published catalogue that had, you know, a paragraph of text on the better objects. And I remember Mrs. Corsini was running around the back of room, actually shouting in the auction room about how outrageously cheap it was and how she was upset about it. The Red School House - by Winslow Homer: The Turkey Buzzard - by Winslow Homer: The Veteran in a New Field - by Winslow Homer: The Water Fan - by Winslow Homer: The West Wind - by Winslow Homer: The Woodcutter - by Winslow Homer: Two Girls on the Beach Tynemouth - by Winslow Homer: Two Scouts - by Winslow Homer: Under the Coco Palm - by Winslow . [Laughs. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Of course, I saw their objects. Or was it a matter of opportunity, that you would look at what was out there and decide what you wanted and give. I mean, my eye has changed. ], JUDITH RICHARDS: At what pointat what point did you think about putting aside, possibly in storage, or selling that first Chinese porcelain collection? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. I wanted to start by asking you to say when and where you were born, and to talk about your immediate family, their names, and anyone else who was important to you in your family. October 16, 2020; Beef And Broccoli. It's fascinating. The shareholders did very well by the real estate. They were the combat correspondents of their day, traveling and living with soldiers. It just wasn'tI mean until 1999when, unfortunately, the auction houses forced me to come out of the closet, thatthat's really the only time, you know, when the Christie's and the Sotheby's, when they became so socially engaged with me, and they were trying to drag me out, you know, that they werethey were seeing a younger person buying things at a sale, and they wanted to know who they are, and what theyyou know, they're doing market research, and in their market research, they want to drag you to a dinner and plop you next to the ambassador and, you know. I mean, little things, but just lots of articles, publications, and now, you know, again, contributing to the San Francisco exhibition's works. You know, you name it. No, I was 15 and a half. So it's, to me, those moments. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Ruth Payntar, P-A-Y-N-T-A-R. And on my father's side, both parents were living. Clifford J. Schorer is known for Plutonium Baby (1987). CLIFFORD SCHORER: I mean, I think that, in general, they just wanted an opinion. JUDITH RICHARDS: Does Agnew's publish? Listing of the Day Location: Provincetown, MassachusettsPrice: $3.399 million This starkly modern and dramatic home was built in 2013 as a guesthouse to an adjacent flat-roofed, glass . I mean, a story I'm obsessed with is theis the German scientist who invented the nitrate process for fertilizer, because in his hands lies the population explosion of the 20th century. JUDITH RICHARDS: Have you ever tried to, or wanted to, learn how to do any of the kinds of ceramic work or painting or whatever yourself to see what's entailed? I mean, obviously, this isthis is one approach to art history, where you would take into account [01:00:01]. It was a good job. I mean, you know, obviously, I love the writing style of Simon Schama. Why is this not Renaissance?" It's a segue into theyou know, what was going on at that time. Any object there that might have a mark. 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